This question strikes a nerve quite deep with me. In my mind it is a question that is presented only by those that do not appreciate what they have and always think the grass looks greener on the other side. I for one, and possibly only one, had grown almost ashamed of our Football Program under Cooper. Great talent but lacking the discipline and direction from the top to beat scum, win in bowl games or win a NC which we should have done at least twice under Cooper. Furthermore, the class, imagine and integrity of the program had reached all-time lows. Enter JT who restored the class, the image, the integrity while winning in bowl games, winning a NC and beating scum. Yes, JT's system is quite conservative but then too was Woody's. And I contend it is not the system that dictates success as much as it is the execution of that system. JT has had good talent but until the past 2 years has not good enough talent. He is now getting the ship loaded and while no matter what it requires a bit of luck to win a NC I do see him winning another at tOSU (perhaps as soon as 2010). Over his tenure I have seen him bend his system to fit the talent once the talent had earned his trust (as he did when Smith was here) and is doing with TP. I just do not see him breaking from his system as far as his value of for field position (nor do I think he should). For a select few college football is a proving grounds for the NFL but for all college is a time to develop as a responsible, capable individual. JT's players accomplish this mission as well as any group in college football and do so while still being highly successful. Yes, we would all like to have had three NC trophies in the case but fact is other than Fl tOSU has been there more than any other team in the last 7 years. If the system is so wrong we would not even have gotten there. If the execution and talent had been better we would have had three with this system. JT makes me proud to be a Buckeye and his players are better for their experience at tOSU. Those that want to question JT are those that if we won every game would be questioning the system because we were not winning by as great of margin as they would like.

Let's forget the fans of the program. The emotional investment may too much to overcome to determine whether we can discuss this topic rationally.

The reality is fans of other programs think Tressel is a top 10 coach. They think OSU is known for great defenses. They do not think very highly of OSUs offense. They may or may not be aware that Tressel is heavily invested in the offense to the tune of playcaller and maybe coordinator. I am not sure how that would affect their perception of him.

I am not talking about the just the press. I am talking about other fans that know the program well such as fans of other Big 10 schools.

I tend to think there is a lot of truth to the above perceptions. OSU probably does not have some special genius offensive game plan that few can appreciate. The offense is just not at the same high level as other aspects of the program such as recruiting, training, and defense.

Duane,

I have argued that there isn't much difference between "Tresselball" and "Steelersball" and the Steelers have won at the highest level with great defense and an offense that protects the ball.

Thoughts?

dbuckeye44

I completely agree. This list from heismanpundint seems to be ranking success purely on wins and losses on the field. Obviously this is a major factor in how anyone regards the success of a coach, but JT doesn't judge his personal success or his teams success solely on how many or which games the team wins.

I hear many Buckeye fans in the stadium in the fall get worked up about anything that happens on the field that isn't perfect. They seem to expect the actual game to work like a video game set to easy. In an actual game, you aren't going to score every time, stop the other team every time, earn first downs every possession, etc. When these things don't happen, fans often cry about JT and his conservative system. It truly has become a situation where many fans are not appreciating the overall success of the program.

Since JT took over as coach, the Buckeyes have had a tremendous amount of success, both on and off the field. It's a great time to be a Buckeye fan, some just need to step back and realize it.

I don't know what's wrong with the formatting of the comments, but the end of my comment above is:
on and off the field. It's a great time to be a Buckeye fan, some fans need to step back and realize it.

There are significant differences between D-1A and D-1AA football that I think are important.

First, the ultimate goal in D-1A is to make it to the BCS Championship game and to do that, a team normally has to be a 0 or 1 loss team. In D-1AA the goal is also to make the championship, but each team has to make it to the play-offs first. D-1AA is more tolerant of a loss or two. But in order to win a D-1AA Championship, a team MUST be playing its best football at the end of the season and given that D1-AA is slightly more loss tolerant, a team has the luxury of being able to develop over the course of a season. There is much less loss tolerance over the span of a D-1A season.

Second, there is no or much less lay-off time between the end of a D-1AA season and the start of the post-season. Markedly different from the current D-1A season and post-season.

A little torn on the stance. Off the field I don't think he's overrated at all. OSU's program was in serious disarray off the field when he came in. He took a program that had devolved into a mercenary factory in instituted more than discipline--he made the kids care more about the program, the school, others, and their own achievements. Sure, kids still screw up and get in trouble. But I think, largely, the major stuff is rare at this point.

On the field you've got a case, though I only say that from the viewpoint of offensive struggles. But even then I think the term "overrated" might be a little too harsh. The guy wins--a lot. He just isn't winning the big games. You can say he's a big fish in a little pond at the moment with the BigTen, but then so is Pete Caroll. The two are very similar with a couple major exceptions--Pete is winning the big games, but can't keep his teams focused on the smaller league games, and Tressel has lately been the exact opposite. That and offensive production through their tenures.

Nick: "They seem to expect the actual game to work like a video game set to easy."

I'm a huge video game fan. That said, two things I think have essentially ruined the average fan's football IQ: Video games and ESPN Sportscenter.

Whenever your RB isn't Barry Sanders every play people now ask, "Why not? I see plays like this from every team in Div1a/1aa every night on Sportscenter." Whenever your team doesn't sign 25 5* players every class, people now ask, "Why not? I play OSU on NCAA for PS3 and I get 25 5*s every year. Why can't Tressel?" People only expose themselves to a portion of the game, or an abstract representation, and expect the real world to behave with the same mechanics.

I love what Tress did and has done for the integrity of the program. He restored the order Coop lost. Ever since the Florida collapse I've been critical or at least opened my eyes (atually since putting in Zwick over Troy Smith for what looked to be last chance to drive against Texas when we'd score every time Troy had been in). Sit back an pick the two rosters of Florida and OSU and the where are they now. The first glaring fact, we made a non-drafted QB the game's MVP. Or Meyer did with his emphasis on the advatages the college offense has over NFL offenses. The wide hash marks and line men being able to block up field as long as ball is thrown behind line of scrimmage (even though they did little of this since we were ten yards off their recievers). In the most recent game I was most critical about how the staff seemingly was shocked that Texas had a no huddle offense (when they came out in it in the second half of the bowl game).

I do not care where he is rated or who is doing the rating, I will take JT over anyone else, period. That is not being a homer,either, it is recognizing the extreme success JT has brought to the program in every way imaginable, and the future success we all will enjoy.

All is fair in love and war. Win a few big ones and they call you the best big game coach in the game. Lose a few lopsided nationally significant games and your criticized 24/7. Heard same arguments before. They have intensified with every loss. I could not find another man I would want to root more for than Jim Tressel. Maybe he is hearing the whispers and it pisses him off as much as it does me. Only thing against the article I have is the writer is mistaken about our recruits. We did miss our mark a few years and it materialized on the field. Last 2 classes should clear that up and turn the page.

Duane,

I have argued that there isn't much difference between "Tresselball" and "Steelersball" and the Steelers have won at the highest level with great defense and an offense that protects the ball.

Thoughts?

This would be the highest compliment. To silence the skeptics it will take answering the call the same way the Steelers have done several times.

Jims Friend: "Only thing against the article I have is the writer is mistaken about our recruits. We did miss our mark a few years and it materialized on the field. Last 2 classes should clear that up and turn the page."

Not sure you're disproving his point. He's saying we win because OSU recruits a ton of good players, not necessarily that Tressel is a great coach. You're saying we couldn't win big games because we didn't have top-flight talent. They sound similar. I think there's an ounce of truth to the notion that OSU often can, and does, out-talent the competition rather than particularly out-coach. That idea gains traction when considering outcomes of recent games against perceived talent equals.

Duane,

I have argued that there isn't much difference between "Tresselball" and "Steelersball" and the Steelers have won at the highest level with great defense and an offense that protects the ball.

Thoughts?

This would be the highest compliment. To silence the skeptics it will take answering the call the same way the Steelers have done several times.

Raven's have also had great success playing "Tresselball"

Agreed.We win the games we have obvious more talent. We clam up and struggle if other teams talent is near ours(see Penn State and Texas-Fiesta Bowl).If the team actually has better talent than us the USC and LSU games we seem to fall apart.I blame part of that on the trying to always hold things back and not plays not be game tested and then expect execution.I prefer running what you run and perfecting it the way USC put it on Virginia the week before we played them and running their offense to get new QB game ready for us.

JT does evolve as time marches on. Can he evolve enough to win another title before the window closes on him? that's the question.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you really understand the game.

Beau, you repeated the myth about Troy giving OSU the better chance to win the Texas game in the last quarter based on the fact he was perceived to be playing better at that point of the game. I've e-mailed extensively about this issue to K. Gordon, Pat Forde and assorted other who have repeated this myth. I'd be happy to send the same to you if you really want to understand reality rather than your perception. You're just wrong on that.

And for the idea OSu was outcoached because they had the same talent in big games who here wants to argue that OSU had the same talent in the trenches as Florida, LSU and USC? Anyone? Please elaborate and tell us how Boone, Rehring, Cordle, Denlinger, Abdullah, Pitcock, etc are better than Tyson Jackson, Glen Dorsey,Kris O'Dowd, Jeff Byers, Fili Moala, Brian Cushing, Herman Johnson, Derrick Harvey, etc..

Those of you who think Tressel isn't absolutely outstanding are just clueless. I'm sorry but it's true. You should be building a statue of him.

Duane,

I don't follow DI-AA (FCS) and I believe you said you don't either, not sure though.

But I would think there are potentially MORE game breakers in that division - relativey speaking.

That's because the DI guys that don't make it with the big boys, but don't want to sit out either, transfer down a division.

Almost all of these guys are physically superior - that's why they got the DI offer to begin with - some of these guys are even 'freaks'... and now when paired up agains the classic 'tweeners' of DI-AA, the disparity is even greater.

So I think I would argue that JT has had to deal with his share of game breakers at YSU.

There are significant differences between D-1A and D-1AA football that I think are important.

First, the ultimate goal in D-1A is to make it to the BCS Championship game and to do that, a team normally has to be a 0 or 1 loss team. In D-1AA the goal is also to make the championship, but each team has to make it to the play-offs first. D-1AA is more tolerant of a loss or two. But in order to win a D-1AA Championship, a team MUST be playing its best football at the end of the season and given that D1-AA is slightly more loss tolerant, a team has the luxury of being able to develop over the course of a season. There is much less loss tolerance over the span of a D-1A season.

Second, there is no or much less lay-off time between the end of a D-1AA season and the start of the post-season. Markedly different from the current D-1A season and post-season.

Additionally, there are no "style points" in D-1AA. You win enough games and you're in the play-offs. Doesn't matter if you win by 4 or 44. Win and you're in. In D-1A, you play for a fancy-schmancy bowl game, based partially on Won-Loss records, partially on how well your fan base travels, partially on media numbers, and partially on how entertaining you are.

My point is that Coach Tressel played his college football in D1-AA and most of his Head Coaching career has been at D1-AA.

It is possible that his coaching philosophy is still deeply influenced by the D1-AA environment, what it take to succeed there, and how D1-AA defines success.

Here's the rest...
...season & post season.

Additionally, there are no "style points" in D-1AA. You win enough games and you're in the play-offs. Doesn't matter if you win by 4 or 44. Win and you're in. In D-1A, you play for a fancy-schmancy bowl game, based partially on Won-Loss records, partially on how well your fan base travels, partially on media numbers, and partially on how entertaining you are.

My point is that Coach Tressel played his college football in D1-AA and most of his Head Coaching career has been at D1-AA.

It is possible that his coaching philosophy is still deeply influenced by the D1-AA environment, what it take to succeed there, and how D1-AA defines success.

"he gets a ton of talent every year and lately has found a way to get pummeled in the big games"

Funny how so many "experts" ignore how when JT has near equal talent on the lines, he usually wins the game. Let's see how they perform the next couple years, with excellent talent on the lines, before we condemn the man.

Agree with BeenThere 77. Way too early to condemn or chastise JT. I gotta say it again: He resurrected the program from a pretty sorry state. He wins almost all the games he should win and rarely gets upset by an inferior foe. Class act all around. Public discourse has its benefits but this tired topic is beginning to smell like old shoes. He is evolving, and we should be back at the top SOON.

Jealousy rears its ugly head.Is JT perfect hardly.But the last 3 years he has taken less heralded talent except for a few positions and gone to 3 BCS bowls Against Fla they the players did not show up.LSU was the superiour team and Texas turned into a great game that JT did a brilliant job coaching only to lose by a bad spot and a great play by Texas.What is not Tress winning at a higher rate % than any previous coach at Ohio State and only cheatin Pete has won more games by a couple the last 6-8 years.

What a terrific thread, with MANY inputs about 'differences' and what the poster values. Each person's distinctions and values decisively influence that poster's perspective and 'rating'.

Comparatively, this thread is far different from most BECAUSE posters identified differences and values BEFORE delivering their conclusion/rating. Posters here have identified 'where they are coming from'...and boy does that promote reasonable discussion!

So, to rephrase the thread title in the way the posters have DELIVERED here: "How and Why Do You Rate Jim Tressel?"

First, due to his stated values and particular leadership style, IMO Jim Tressel is Thee Place to start, and end, any performance assessment of Ohio State football. Duane targeted first things first, IMO: first "offer an explanation of Tresselball", and why JT does it that way.

Why does JT 'do it his way'? Basic factor: JT's micromanaging style that long-time YSU insiders and the hiring of Joe Daniels [remember JT's 'no ego' comment?] signalled. Basic continuing indicator: progressive closing of program and info access down to the 'zero leaks' mantra of 2007 and the A&M of adverse results big games the past 3 years. What enables continuing reinforcement and development of JT's ingrained style? A: 'enough success'. JT used a line in his public speaking his first couple years: "I know i won't be around long if i don't win enough". This practical perspective is both self and program justifying. Self-justifying 'his way' if he feels he 'wins enough'. Here's where the 5 NC's, 1 'at this level'...and W-L stats vs um & overall...'be' 'enough'. Program justifying is the 'imaging' art of keeping influential individuals and groups 'happy'. JT does this by managing 'relationships' as adroitly as Earle Bruce managed...avoiding certain relational aspects in 'the Buckeye community'. JT helps many people/groups... personally. Want a psychological comparison? aac. Here's one: JT maintains his 'personal popularity' by helping personally...in ways similiar to what Congresspeople learned to do since the 80's. Consider the performance impact! "Congress" ['they'] can have a 90% disapproval rating...AT THE SAME TIME MyCongressman [JT, MyPal in MySpace] has a 90% incumbent re-election rate! Such illustrates the massive impact of 'imaging' [syn empathizing, relating] ...compared to explaining WIGO and making assessment and performance distinctions to a rational set of factors and criteria.

I'll stop with my attempt at a basic, common assessment input. Presume for a moment our goal is to perennially contend for NC's, and win .500 of our NCG's [4-6 at YSU in 13? years; 1-3 at tOSU in 8].

In competitive D1 CFB, do we best contend for our goal with a 'be who you are' 'identity' philosophy ... or a dynamic PROCESS to 'outcompete', come what may?

I.E. is football a static, moral situation where there is Thee Best/Right Way...or a dynamic competitive RELATIONAL one that is an ongoing practical challenge/problem ?

I.E. looking at the same question, personally: is MyWay [my preference] the Standard of Performance Measure...or is Winning to set goals?

===related psychology for only humans:

...IF a leader by style, position, and authority; micromanages by habit and preference to his own 'enough success'; THEN, if a person wants to suggest any improvement...he must 'relate to him' ... his way. Surely any ego who 'believes in' his own perceptions...can 'identify with that'?!

What a TERRIFIC and unusual thread!

Duane,

I have argued that there isn't much difference between "Tresselball" and "Steelersball" and the Steelers have won at the highest level with great defense and an offense that protects the ball.

Thoughts?

if you argued that your arguing process here 'isn't much different' than a 'Believer in MyWay' ... then, i'd agree your post content fits that rationale.

if you are "arguing" in the discussion or advocacy sense ...then i don't see your argument here. I do see your conclusion and two anthropomorphic [outside of space and time] mantras.

i realize i'm 'entering in the middle of a [long?] discussion'...and so it may well be that you've covered your argument in great detail and breadth elsewhere, over time....

Agree with BeenThere 77. Way too early to condemn or chastise JT. I gotta say it again: He resurrected the program from a pretty sorry state. He wins almost all the games he should win and rarely gets upset by an inferior foe. Class act all around. Public discourse has its benefits but this tired topic is beginning to smell like old shoes. He is evolving, and we should be back at the top SOON.

"way too early"? This is NOT what JT says. What does JT say about improving...adapting...goals...measurements? It is also not WIGO...as every perceived and actual behavior you 'chastize' [ ;-{)} ]...has already occurred!

"condemn"? This is NOT what JT says. While i agree with you that this world is full of condemmers and chastizers...just doing the best they can...there is no requirement other than my self-imposed stupdity to heed them....

If you "evolve ...back at the top SOON" ... THEN where is the STRIVING and DOING of achieving, of earning, of outcompeting? You make a fundamental assumption about the nature of life here...affecting EVERYTHING. Is football a game of "evolving"?

I suspect we naturally & habitually write whatever...before thinking about what it literally means, or how it compares to what JT says, or whether it is in context, or how it relates to the topic or our COMMON goals. Any combo of these basic factors explains why we 'passionately' ...don't communicate very well! This thread...where many posters describe some of their values and 'differences'...IMO illustrate our usual behavior by comparison.

What an invigorating...constructive ...discussion!

I think everyone has missed the point. Tress is far from a conservative coach-he will try just about anything and everything from borrowing Read Option and Pistol sets to lining up both QBS on the field at the same time. He's also a great recruiter and I will go as far to say that we have been VERY underated these last couple of years. Our talent has been 2nd to none during the Tress era. I think our Oline led by Boone did under achieve some though and here's why.... TRESSEL DOESNT HAVE THE QUALITY ASSISTANTS THAT THE OTHER TOP SCHOOLS HAVE! And in this I fault Tressel's "do it my way" approach. He put down the "offensive guru" other teams have on the sidelines, but look at USC's success. I will go as far to say that Tressel is a better coach than Carroll (definitely more class!), but has he had Norm Chow, Lane Kiffen, Steve Sarkisian and now a potential follow up genius in Johnnie Morton??? We have Jim Bohlman. The contrast was never more evident to me than in last years USC debacle and seeing Tressel all by his lonesome on the sideline trying to figure out what to do in the 2nd half -- it was sad!! There were NO adjustments -- the offensive scheme completelly broke down! On the contrary Carroll was constantly surrounded by 2 or 3 coaches -- even during time outs when he'd go out to the huddle he was accompanied by 3 coaches!! Do you realize that Sarkisian was still working on new "wrinkles" and calling new playsin the 4th quarter and BURNING our D with 2nd stringers while OSU's offense was running out of ideas by the 3rd quarter. There is such a discrepency in schemes (not as bad on Defense) with these top schools - not just USC. Check out Les Mile's assistants or Urban Meyer's. THIS IS THE PROBLEM - NOTHING ELSE